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Most immigrants are also much more likely to be competing for working class jobs. We middle class only see the benefits of a growing labour force, not an increase in competition.

When immigrants are well educated (eg Doctors) we welcome them into sectors where there is a shortage of qualified workers.

No wonder the working classes see things differently.

Yes, you're right. I took the economic arguments as read when I wrote this but the working class, especially the uskilled, have the most to lose from an infux of cheap labour.

Yes, there is a double-whammy here. As new immigrants arrive there are some who are low skilled but cheap and compliant. There are others (especially from eastern Europe)who are motivated and skilled. All that they lack is social skills and the nuances of language. In parallel the education of the native underclass remains, for all sorts of reasons, dreadful, and many British born young people are disaffected and unemployable.

This is a potentially incendiary mixture. Repression will not provide an answer, so we will have to do something constructive, and quickly.

The above reminded me of a piece that appeared in The Tinbasher Blog, which discusses (amongst other things) how the popular perceptions of the middle classes have a negative impact on the business prospects of a respectable company (with a respectable blogger).

http://butlersheetmetal.com/tinbasherblog/index.php/archives/2005/03/08/live-at-the-witch-trials/

If you want a great policy for cutting back on economic migrants, the Tories have got a brilliant one. It's called mass unemployment.

With three million people jobless, a million more on 'early retirement' and working class wages ground into the dust it was obvious no-one wanted to come here.

As for migrants stealing jobs from poor white working class, that's swivel-eyed nonsense. How many young white people are willing to work for Burger King? None. The reason is because the pay and conditions are a lot worse than what they could get elsewhere (hasn't anyone noticed that umemployemnt is at 3%?). It's not that immigrants have driven down wages. We've just had the minimum wage. It's that white people's aspirations are a lot higher now.

As for housing, the problem is not that immigrants jump to the front of the queue for council houses, it's that house prices are too high for a lot of first time buyers. Again, the solution is obvious: mass unemployment would soon burst that bubble.

And before you ask, I live on a London council estate and I get on well with all my neighbours, and all the white people who want a job have got one and the only difference between the English whites and the Somali blacks and the Turkish Kurds is that the children of the Somalis and Kurds are better behaved and less likely vandalise stuff.

If you want a great policy for cutting back on economic migrants, the Tories have got a brilliant one. It's called mass unemployment.

With three million people jobless, a million more on 'early retirement' and working class wages ground into the dust it was obvious no-one wanted to come here.

As for migrants stealing jobs from poor white working class, that's swivel-eyed nonsense. How many young white people are willing to work for Burger King? None. The reason is because the pay and conditions are a lot worse than what they could get elsewhere (hasn't anyone noticed that umemployemnt is at 3%?). It's not that immigrants have driven down wages. We've just had the minimum wage. It's that white people's aspirations are a lot higher now.

As for housing, the problem is not that immigrants jump to the front of the queue for council houses, it's that house prices are too high for a lot of first time buyers. Again, the solution is obvious: mass unemployment would soon burst that bubble.

And before you ask, I live on a London council estate and I get on well with all my neighbours, and all the white people who want a job have got one and the only difference between the English whites and the Somali blacks and the Turkish Kurds is that the children of the Somalis and Kurds are better behaved and less likely vandalise stuff.

There is a rich irony in the immigration debate these days.

Left-wingers who defend uncontrolled immigration can sound like they're giving the keynote speech at the CBI conference, as they extol the benefits of economic growth that allegedly follow.

Right-wingers by contrast sound as if they're addressing the brothers at the TUC conference, as they miraculously unearth a previously-unknown concern for the pay and conditions of the working class.

This is why EU membership is so important. Harmonised basic standards ensure that we are not in a 'race to the bottom' with our EU rivals in terms of pay and working conditions. If we were, then immigration WOULD result in a negative impact on the local working-class population. As it is, they benefit from the economic growth that a reasonably flexible migration pattern allows.

The people I feel sorry for are the people in the countries where we are recruiting our nurses from. They are suffering a brain-drain that impacts on their own health-services.

Working class people are usually totally thick slobs who never bother with education and have only themselves to blame for their problems. They are dim, utterly dim and slobbish. I am tired of this stupid sympathy for the working class. Labouring class is more correct, because most so-called 'working class' people never use their brains and are totally hostile to any form of education.Give them pubs, inane drivel like 'Eastenders' or 'Coronation Street' and they are happy. Working class people are a waste of space.

I am sorry. I posted the above comment about working class people and I must admit I feel somewhat guilty. I did it because I am so sick and tired of people being so hostile about the middle classes. Why is there all this ridiculous 'class warfare'? It is awful and unhelpful. I apologize for the comments I made in the previous posting.

You think working class people are a waste of space? Historically, the middle classes could not have survived without them. Who else would they have to
a) fight their wars
b) work their land
c) look after their children
d) cook their food
c) build roads, bridges, railways, houses.
d) And do all this for criminally low wages?

Joe90, its only ironic if you have a fixed view of what it is to be 'left' or 'right'. I find these labels unhelpful - I prefer 'wrong' and 'right', it irrelevent which party is attaching itself to the issue, or attached itself to that issue in a former life in the distant past.

To the anonymous poster - most people, including you I suspect, who claim to be middle class are infact working class. Dont let material niceties fool you - if you need to work to survive then you are no different to any working class man. You dont need soot on your face to be working class.

HSBguzzler: It is ironic when people say different things, the implications of which are opposed to each other, or which go against their proven track record.

Sidenote: Interesting to see this thread revived from just over a year ago, and how Pub Philosopher has changed in that time.

Aye, I agree Joe - Sorry if it sounded like I was having a pop ( it wasnt intended)

No problem HSB.

How has it changed Joe?

I'm not having a pop either, I'm interested to hear your view.

Thanks Steve.

Any impression I have is probably an amalgram of both your opening posts and the readers' responses.

But my hunch is: less eclectic, more focussed, perhaps more purposeful, more clearly part of a distinguishable cluster of weblogs.

Hmmm. Maybe you're right. Time to broaden out a bit, perhaps.

Why is it that the answer to social problems caused by unrestricted and ill managed immigration always seems to be more immigration? Why is it that it is only white racism that is a problem and not for example Islamic racism, especially Islamic Jew hatred, or the clearly demonstrated racism that many Afro Carribbeans show for Asians and vice versa?

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